Dr. Jen Gunter has been called the Internet’s most fearless advocate for women’s health. The OB/GYN, a.k.a. Twitter’s Resident Gynecologist, has a knack for debunking misinformation and empowering women. Her latest book, The Menopause Manifesto, is a followup to her No. 1 bestseller The Vagina Bible. “I couldn’t write about menopause without making it a feminist work, because up until really now, menopause has been viewed through patriarchal eyes,” she says. Gunter speaks to us about challenging the narrative that women’s parts are “dirty” and offers tips on how to find information online from reliable health sources. Listen in to find out how she’s using social media to educate the public.
Dr. Jen Gunter has been called the Internet’s most fearless advocate for women’s health. The OB/GYN, a.k.a. Twitter’s Resident Gynecologist, has a knack for debunking misinformation and empowering women. Her latest book, The Menopause Manifesto, is a followup to her No. 1 bestseller The Vagina Bible. “I couldn’t write about menopause without making it a feminist work, because up until really now, menopause has been viewed through patriarchal eyes,” she says. Gunter speaks to us about challenging the narrative that women’s parts are “dirty” and offers tips on how to find information online from reliable health sources. Listen in to find out how she’s using social media to educate the public.
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Announcer:
This episode is brought to you by Dame products. Bringing life-changing education to your bedroom, Dame is a female-founded sexual wellness company that revolutionizes sex toys through in-depth research, smart design, and plenty of empathy. Find simple solutions for living well at the Indigo Wellness Shop, with critically acclaimed Dame products like the Eva and the Arc. Visit indigo.ca to explore the full collection of Dame products.
[music]
Heather Reisman:
Hi, I’m Heather Reisman, and this is Well Said, a podcast on the art and science of living well. This podcast is brought to you by Indigo.
Dr. Jen Gunter [preview]:
I want everybody in menopause to think about it as a planned stopping of ovarian function that is part of evolution. And we would not have anything that we have today if we had evolved without the help of ancestral grandmothers.
Heather Reisman:
Joining us today is the wonderful Dr. Jen Gunter. Jen is often referred to as Twitter’s resident gynecologist and the Internet’s ob-gyn. Hailing from Winnipeg, Manitoba, she now practises in San Francisco. Jen is the bestselling author of three books. Today, we’re talking about her latest one, The Menopause Manifesto. Jen is known for her no-holds-barred approach when it comes to misinformation. And we are delighted to have her here today in conversation with Dr. Chika Oriuwa—a resident physician in psychiatry, a poet, public speaker, and fellow booklover. Chika, over to you.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
Welcome again to our podcast. Thank you so much for carving time out of your busy schedule to chat with me today.
Dr. Jen Gunter:
Thank you so much for having me. This is really fun.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
Jen, you’re widely known for your outspokenness on women’s issues and firing back at misinformation. How would you describe your goal when it comes to helping people get better information?
Dr. Jen Gunter:
Well, I think my goal is so people can have informed consent. Because you really can’t make a decision about your health with inaccurate information. And if you want to be empowered you need accurate health information. And so I think, you know, my real goal is empowerment through information and education.
I really believe that, you know, the education of the public is part of a physician’s duty. And so, at the beginning when I became active on social media, you know, there were a lot of “the old boys’ network”—for lack of a better term—you know, who were telling me it was inappropriate for, you know, me to be talking to patients directly—well, I mean, I wasn’t talking to my patients but talking to the public directly—and that it was inappropriate for me to use common language, or inappropriate for me to swear. And I’m like, you know, you have to speak in a way people can understand. And you also have to be authentic. People—people really respond to, you know, authenticity. And you know, if your message is, “I am a doctor and you should believe this,” I mean, no one is going to listen. That’s like (snoring sound), “Huh, what?” You know, like you have to present information in a way that people can hear it and can use it. So there was some pushback with that but, fortunately, I don’t really care what people think of me, so that’s good (laughs).
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
I love that mantra: not caring about what people think and, honestly, rewriting a lot of what it means to be a physician, a lot of what it means to be a public-facing advocate. All these things are so important.
And on that topic, what’s the best way to get solid medical information if you don’t have regular access to a family doctor or a specialist?
Dr. Jen Gunter:
It’s always hard to know who to trust online and who not to trust. And I always hope that, gosh, that I’ve built up a reputation of trust. So for someone who’s just, “Look. I just want to go up and look up information about fibroids,” for example, I would recommend that instead of doing an Internet search via Google, or whatever search engine—because that way, if you put that in, your search engine response is a complicated mix of advertising, popularity, and, of course you know, snake oil is popular, and, you know, people advertising supplements, and things like that—so what I recommend people do is they learn the names of the medical professional societies that sort of are involved with the condition that they care about.
So, for example, in Canada, if I was looking up fibroids, I would go to the SOGC—the Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists’ website. And I would search internally in their site. So right away that takes out all the contamination from the Internet. And then you will start with your first piece of information that has been curated by experts. And any biases will have been disclosed.
And then I also give people a few other tips and tricks. If someone is selling a product, you cannot get health information from their site. That’s biased. I mean, you wouldn’t—most people wouldn’t get health information about depression from a company selling an antidepressant. They would say, “Hey! I want it from an unbiased source.” So that’s the same thing.
And I also tell people that they should steer clear of places that promote medical conspiracy theories—you know, so anti-vaccine beliefs, anti-fluoride beliefs—because, ah, medical conspiracy theories are obviously incorrect. And if they have that one thing wrong, what else do they have wrong? And also, funny enough, belief in medical conspiracy theories increases the chance you’re going to buy supplements. So all these sort of alternative sites are financially invested in medical conspiracy theories.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
And it’s almost ironic, because a lot of these sites tear down traditional medicine for being capitalistic, in a sense, and yet (laughs).
Dr. Jen Gunter:
I know!
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
And yet there’s this undercurrent of capitalism that is pervasive amongst some of these, you know, counterculture alternative medicine, in a sense. And so it’s very, ah, it’s a very interesting parallel to draw.
Dr. Jen Gunter:
Yeah, it really is.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
Why do you think there is so much misinformation out there about women’s health?
Dr. Jen Gunter:
Well, the one-word answer is the patriarchy. I mean, you know (laughing).
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
Yup.
Dr. Jen Gunter:
I think that … Yeah. I mean, it sort of, that sums it all up. And ah, I think it’s really the fact that, you know, women’s bodies have been weaponized against them, you know, since the beginning of most societies. And Western medicine started with this concept that women’s bodies were inferior to men’s. You know, we were overly moist; we leaked fluid; we were, you know, put together in a shifty, bad way. And those ideas have permeated, I think, everything, you know, in our society for thousands of years. And I think it’s really the fact that that has just been how things have been, and we don’t even realize it until you start peeling away the layers.
And so I think that, you know, we’ve had this patriarchal system that has educated generation and generation after physicians. And even now if you look at some of the words we use in medicine—like the word “pudendum,” you know, the Latin root is “to shame.” Right? So some of this, you know, this actual misogyny is like encoded into the words that we use when we speak to patients.
So yeah, I think that, you know, weaponizing women’s bodies for, you know, for various reasons, primarily related to, you know, reproductive coercion, has been part of society; and medicine is part of society.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
Can we go through, decade by decade—almost rapid-fire, in a sense—and highlight one thing that people in each decade need to understand? So, let’s start it off with puberty.
Dr. Jen Gunter:
So, yeah. So in puberty I would say what you need to understand is the hymen has nothing to do with virginity. And virginity is a social construct. So the hymen is just a membranous fold in the vagina that, you know, likely plays a protective role when you’re an infant, and then it takes on all kinds of shapes and stretching ability, and it means absolutely nothing.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
Amen.
(laughter)
And what about your 20s?
Dr. Jen Gunter:
Painful, heavy periods are sometimes typical, but they’re not normal. And so they happen, lots of women have them, but you shouldn’t suffer with painful periods. If you’re leaking blood onto your clothes, your periods are too heavy. And if you go to someone and your concern about your heavier, painful periods is dismissed, that person has a problem and, while it might be hard, I would recommend seeking advice elsewhere.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
And your 30s?
Dr. Jen Gunter:
In your 30s? Well, I guess this could be for anybody. The penis is the least reliable way to achieve an orgasm.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
I am silent-clapping—for everyone that can’t see.
(laughter)
Great. Succinct. To the point. Love it.
And 40s?
Dr. Jen Gunter:
Forties. Symptoms of menopause happen long before your final menstrual period. So don’t let anyone tell you, at the age of 43 or 44, that, you know, if you’re feeling some changes that it couldn’t be related to that. So it can definitely happen earlier. And the corollary is surprise pregnancies at 47 sometimes happen.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
Great point, great point.
And your 50s?
Dr. Jen Gunter:
In your 50s. Your worth has nothing to do with whether or not your ovaries make estrogen. So it’s got nothing to do with your awesomeness. And so don’t believe any of that messaging that you hear.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
Amazing.
And menopause?
Dr. Jen Gunter:
So, for all of menopause I would say we have this incredible data to tell us that ancestral women in menopause were drivers of evolution—that grandmothers provided support for their children, so their children were able to have more children, and able to have safer childbirths, and able to have more offspring. And having more offspring is an important part of evolution. And ancestral grandmothers were busy gathering food and helping. And we frame menopause as ovarian failure; and I want everybody in menopause to think about it as a planned stopping of ovarian function that is part of evolution, and we would not have anything that we have today if we had evolved without the help of ancestral grandmothers.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
That was fantastic. Truly, I think, one of the best two minutes of my life (laughing)—to listen to you go through that.
Dr. Jen Gunter:
(laughing)
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
It was really, really amazing. And kind of on the topic of menopause, what is the problem with dismissing menopausal symptoms as just part of being a woman?
Dr. Jen Gunter:
Well, I mean, it’s an extension of, you know, everything being dismissed as being part of a woman. Right? Like your heavy periods, your cramps. But you know, I think in menopause, you know, women are meant to just shut up and be quiet. Right? You know, we’re meant to be the old crones off in the corner, who are no longer relevant to society. And so many women suffer. And they suffer and suffer. And they may also then develop medical conditions because of it. You know, they may develop osteoporosis or heart disease that’s not treated, or diabetes. Right? And so I think that there’s this gross neglect of not just menopausal symptoms but medical care in general for women who are over 50.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
I absolutely love the fiery dedication that you have to really rewriting the narrative around menopause. And speaking to your latest book, The Menopause Manifesto, what would you say was the impetus for writing this book as a manifesto?
Dr. Jen Gunter:
Everywhere I went on tour for The Vagina Bible—and I had this great cross-Canada tour—you know, everyone asked about menopause, in the audience. What did I think about menopause and, you know, I was on estrogen so everybody wanted to talk about that. And all the reporters who interviewed me. And it was then I started to think a lot about that, you know, “Maybe I should be doing something about that.” And so I decided I would write a book on menopause. And it didn’t really start out as a manifesto. It started out as, you know, The Menopause Bible, kind of thing. As just more of a—more of a sort of a Vagina Bible, you know, my first book, sort of approach to things.
But as I started researching more and more, you know, how conditions are neglected, how people suffer, the history of menopause, the fact that ancestral grandmothers, you know, drove evolution and yet here we are expecting women who are menopausal to diminish, and shut up, and go away—you know, we’re the mad woman in the attic, we’re inconvenients—you know, we are given options to be a crone, a hag, a dottering, old, forgetful lady. Like you know, where are the amazing stories about menopause? You know, where….?
You know, that’s why…. Just recently, I saw the trailer for the Fast & Furious 9, and Helen Mirren is like shooting guns out of both windows. And I’m like, “Yes!”
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
(laughs)
Dr. Jen Gunter:
Yes!
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
(laughs)
Dr. Jen Gunter:
And so, yeah, it was that whole rage—just about, oh my gosh, we have been gaslit, like to the extreme. You know, we’ve been told that we’re not sexy, that we’re not useful, that we’re old, that we’re washed up, that we’re dried up. The language medicine has used has been “ovarian failure,” right, vaginal atrophy. And I was just like, you know, “That’s not acceptable.”
And so as I began researching and writing, I just realized that I couldn’t write about menopause without making it a feminist work. Because up until really now, menopause has been viewed through patriarchal eyes. It has been medical man-splaining; it has been societal man-splaining. And I was just done with the gaslighting.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
For a lot of listeners who have not experienced menopause, the first thing that they think of is hot flashes. You also gave us a fun term: hot bloom, which dates back to the 1700s. What exactly is a hot flash?
Dr. Jen Gunter:
So, a hot flash—or hot flush, or hot bloom—is this intense wave of heat that sort of wells up from your core out to your head and your arms. It’s typically an upper-body and head experience. And basically what it is, is your brain thinks you’re hot and you’re not. And what do you do when you’re hot? You sweat. And you send all your blood to your surface capillaries to get rid of heat. So you have this wave of heat as this sort of blood, which is, you know, sort of is rushing to all your extremities and your head to dump heat. And so you’re dumping heat when you don’t need to. And then often sometimes even people shiver or are colder afterwards, because what happens when you sweat and get rid of heat? You lower your body temperature. So, ah, so that’s a hot flash in a nutshell.
And the biology is really complex. We certainly don’t understand all of it. Because since you can’t really predict when you’re having a hot flash, it’s pretty hard to image people’s brains, you know, while they’re having it. And ah, it’s really fascinating, because people can feel hot, feel like they’re having a hot flush, when it’s not happening; because you can measure it, the skin surface temperature. And people have hot flushes and don’t notice them. I have a lot of them and don’t notice them, at night, still. And sometimes my partner, the heat from my body will wake my partner up. That’s how hot I am. And I don’t wake up. You know? And he’ll say, “Oh, I was reaching over to—to cuddle you. And I was like, ‘Ooh, gosh!’ (laughing) (inaudible) too hot.”
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
Yeah. My husband calls me “the human furnace.”
Dr. Jen Gunter:
Yeah. (laughter)
Dr. Jen Gunter:
It’s incredible, right? Like it’s just like (wind sound).
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
Yeah.
[music]
Announcer:
We hope you’re enjoying today’s conversation with Dr. Jen Gunter. This episode is brought to you by Dame products. Bringing life-changing education to your bedroom, Dame is a female-founded sexual wellness company that revolutionizes sex toys through in-depth research, smart design, and plenty of empathy. Find simple solutions for living well at the Indigo Wellness Shop, with critically acclaimed Dame products, like the Eva and the Arc. Visit indigo.ca to explore the full collection of Dame products.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
You have a new podcast with TED: Demystifying the way our bodies work, and debunking myths along the way. Can you tell us about one myth you’ve had to debunk that people might be surprised by?
Dr. Jen Gunter:
The myth … I think this is actually a really important myth. The myth is that desire comes before arousal. But arousal can come before desire.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
OK.
Dr. Jen Gunter:
We all have in our head the sort of linear progression of sexual interest, sexual desire, sexual arousal, sexual response, and then orgasm and resolution. And while that might work for some people, many people have more of a circular response. And people come to sex for lots of reasons. Some people come to sex for closeness. Some people come to sex to just share a bond with their partner. And some people come to sex because of desire. But that you can have arousal first and desire can kick in afterwards—and that can be perfectly normal. And I wish that everybody knew that.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
Can you give us one thing that people with vaginas can do to be empowered about their health?
Dr. Jen Gunter:
I think learning the names of all the parts and where they are. If every single person knew that, I think we could prevent so many other problems. Because if you can’t describe what part is uncomfortable, you can’t communicate well with your provider. If you can’t say what part you like to have touched, you can’t communicate as well, you know, with your partner for sex. So I think that if every single person could say those words. Because that would also help demystify and get rid of this narrative that they’re dirty parts. Right? Like the vagina and vulva are no dirtier than the elbow or the ankle. You know, when we don’t say those words, we give them a power that they don’t deserve.
And I don’t want to disempower anyone with that. I’m not talking about like how you feel about your body or your sexuality; I’m talking about the power that a patriarchal society has over the vagina and vulva. That ignorance, not knowing your parts, the sort of shame. You know, if you can’t say those words then the implication is they’re shameful. And where do you go to get good information about something that’s shameful? Well, you shouldn’t get information about things that are shameful, right? Those are bad. So I would say, yeah, that would be the one thing if we could—everybody could learn the body parts and say them, say them out loud on any TV show, anytime day or night, you know, and it wouldn’t get a second look.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
I completely, completely agree.
And so at the end of each episode, we like to ask a few fun questions to our guests. So, what book are you reading right now?
Dr. Jen Gunter:
Well, I have been steeped in medical books up until recently. And I’m about to crack Margaret Atwood’s The Testaments, finally. So ah, yes, I know. I bought it when it came out, and then I got, you know, sucked into writing my book, and so I couldn’t stop to read it. And then there was a pandemic and I had pandemic brain. And you know, so, ah, so yeah, I have it. I’m planning on cracking it this weekend. I have not looked at anything online about it. I haven’t read any reviews about it. I don’t want any spoilers. I can’t believe I’ve been able to keep in that like Margaret Atwood bubble for this length of time. But that’s the book that I’m opening this weekend.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
Amazing. That sounds like self-care, which is so important (laughs).
Dr. Jen Gunter:
Yes!
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
And—and on the topic of self-care, what does purposeful living mean to you?
Dr. Jen Gunter:
I would say living in the way that you want to, from a true self-determination. So not living how you think someone else wants you to live. And I think it’s really hard to know that. I think, even now at the age of 54, sometimes I’ll catch myself doing something and I’ll think, “Why did I do that? That’s not something I really want to do. Like why am I…? Like why…? What? What? What sent me in that direction?” You know? And usually it’s some ghost of a good-girl narrative from a long time ago. So yeah, I think getting rid of that. And—and having self-determination in everything that you do.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
I love that message. It’s such an important message. And I also think that you truly embody it, just by the nature of how you do your work and what you stand for. And just everything. Everything.
Dr. Jen Gunter:
Ohh, thank you.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
What brings you joy?
Dr. Jen Gunter:
Oh, what brings me joy? Obviously my children. Seeing them not need me, actually, fills me with both joy and pain. Right? Because it’s pain because, you know, you don’t want them to leave you because you love them so much. But it’s joy because you’re like, “Wow! Look at you succeeding and doing all this stuff and, ah, you know, getting ready to go out and have great adventures and doing great things.” So that fills me with joy, a lot.
And, oh, the smell of the ocean is just, to me … I live really close to the ocean, and so I often go and just, ah, you know, sit and smell or go for walks along the coast. And to me the smell of the ocean is intoxicating.
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
That sounds so beautiful. I think the closest I’m going to get to the ocean is Lake Ontario. And ah, it is intoxicating for other reasons.
Dr. Jen Gunter:
(inaudible)
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
Certainly.
(laughing)
That sounds…. That¬—that sounds magical.
[music]
Dr. Chika Oriuwa:
Thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Jen Gunter.
Dr. Jen Gunter:
Oh, thank you so much for having me. And I hope one day we could meet and have more of these, ah, rousing feminist conversations in-person.
[music]
Heather Reisman:
Thank you for tuning in to our conversation with Jen Gunter. For more ideas to help you live well, including the book featured in this episode, The Menopause Manifesto, visit indigo.ca/podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating on Apple Podcasts. You can follow us wherever you listen to your podcasts.
Well Said was produced for Indigo Inc. by Vocal Fry Studios and is hosted by me, Heather Reisman.
Thank you to Dr. Chika Stacy Oriuwa for guest-hosting today’s conversation.
Announcer:
The information provided in this podcast should not be relied upon by our listeners as medical advice, even where it has been presented by physicians or medical practitioners. Any information presented in this podcast is not, nor is it intended to be, a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. The views expressed throughout this podcast represent the views of the guests and do not necessarily represent the views of Indigo.